| Archive for scabies.myfreeforum.org Southern California Arachnid, Bug, Invertebrate, Entomological Society |
| balam |
Arachnid Developmental StagesHello,I had been wanting to post this up for quite a while but had failed to look for the link. Although I am posting this in the Tarantula section it has information that discuss other arachnids, i.e. Palpigradi, Acari, Schizomida and Uropygi amongst others 
This is a paper by Dr. Robert Gale Breene III. Enjoy: http://www.atshq.org/Development.pdf |
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| Steven |
Ok... I guess ive been semi-scientific when it comes to this. I use "sub-adult" to convey the fact that the spider is a molt or two away and most likely will molt to maturity unmated.
Sorta on the subject... I do believe (due to a few examples ive raised) that Latrodectus can molt past 1st instar within the sac. Ive had one sac that I forced open revealing a large "sling" that cannibalized its siblings. Ive had a few sacs that I opened to find a few large "slings" engorged, but dead. They must have lacked some trigger that would have normally spurned them to chew the escape hole and leave the sac. |
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| balam |
It would be very interesting to see if this genus does in fact molt out of 1st instar in the sac .
I just received another female (thank you Brit), and although I'm missing a male (wink, wink, nudge, nudge... anyone out there have males?), I'd like to mate them in order to test out this observation. Latrodectus are very neat spiders and unique in many ways. Way to go Steven, now you have me on yet another project 
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| sick4x4 |
he doesn't get into theraphosids much does he??? | ||||||
| balam |
Well, I guess I should clarify that I posted this paper in this section because it's bound to have a little more traffic on the site (IMHO). This paper deals with arachnids in general, but I do think it comes in handy when we start getting into the terms and when questions like - what is an instar?, ultimate? and penultimate? come about.
Plus, although "eggs with legs" is the most common, it is nice to be able to refer to it as postembryo. 
It would be nice if we could find a paper based solely on Theraposids. , though the terms would essentially be the same.
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| sick4x4 |
i belive in europe the term they use for "eggs with legs" is :nymphs... and its reported by ray gaberial that P. formosa has 4 nymph stages, P.metallica and P. miranda have 3 stages...Theraposid's usually, or the absolute majority of species has 2 larval stages.....soo there should be a clear distinction when using the above link in ref to Theraposids....
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| balam |
See, that is exactly what I mean. First of all we have the clear distinction of larval stages in Theraposids, but we also have to take into account that at any given time a scholar can name (I think) each of those stages by themselves, not taking into account what is already out there.
Who (as an individual), or what organization (as a group) could confirm what the different stages are actually called (in Theraposids at least)? |
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| sick4x4 |
i like to bounce my info against my friends in germany and the UK....no one individual i'd say is the premier go-to guy but the BTS is or at least in part, seem to have a handle on scientific discovery regarding our hobby....ray gabriel is a guy i hold in high regards and a few others..but Europe like i said, seems to have the edge in the knowledge department..... no fault of our own, it just seems they take it a little more serious then we do over here..... | ||||||
| cacoseraph |
well, the document linked to is in no way an edict handed down from Arachnos, god of arachnids
there are a lot of things that are called or thought of one way in USA and slightly to moderately dif in Euroland |
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| balam |
I would say the document is at least a start. This is where the conversation can get going.
One country may have a way of looking at things and another may differ in one slight way or another; however when it comes down to science we must understand it has to be universal (kind of like math, 2 should be two here and in Cairo), just the same, what I call "egg w/ legs" has a scientific term that describes such specific developmental stage and that should be the same no matter where you are in the world. I don't care if there are people in the hobby that could care less what that stage is called, that is entirely fine, it takes all kinds to make a world, but I would personally like to know what that term is (and any other when it comes to both Theraposids and other arachnids), not only does it help to unify what's out there, but it allows people to go back and read the literature that is available through scientific sources and be able to better understand it. Just my opinion
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| cacoseraph |
oh definitely. i didn't mean to say that the document is useless... just that because RGB3 says something doesn't mean it *has* to be that way | ||||||
| sick4x4 |
like andrew said  ::lol::... i dont hold everything, anyone individual says as gospel but the info is out there just in different languages..most of the good stuff is in German and Russian.... though we do have andrew smith but his books are like 600.00 plus and he doesn't share info on the net really.... sooo if you want the really good stuff, its going to cost you...sadly, it seems to be a growing trend that info is expensive(not that i blame them, it costs money to produce) and not many want to pay for it...so to have a universal system in place is probably already here with scientist but hobbyists, its what ever the new catch phrase is unfortunately....
2+2=4 unless you take math theory and then its a wide assortment of answers
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| Steven |
Yeah, but everything said in the article is dead on simple. I couldnt disagree with any of it.
Just an example.. words like larvae and nymph when referring to spider development are way off the mark. |
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| sick4x4 |
why steve???? In biology, a nymph is the immature form of some invertebrates....A larva (Latin; plural larvae) is a young (juvenile) form of animal with indirect development....i never thought the terms were specific to any-one jaundra???? |
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| balam |
I understand what you mean, just sucks that there are so many terms floating around that all sound/are the same but may refer to different things.
Now I'm feeling hard headed, 'cause I somewhat agree. And once again, though one shouldn't listen to the preacher and go exactly by what one person says I must admit that I still feel like regardless where there needs or should be unity. If Europe is looking at it from a more scientific standpoint then get to it and let's get things straight. If nymph can't be used (or shouldn't) then let's not use it (I'm speaking from the point of view that I ope is a little more scientific than the ever so common "eggs w/ legs") I understand this is ongoing science and that not everyone is going to hold hands and agree, but for goodness sake it still is science!!! What would happen if people decided to say MPG instead of DNA, just 'cause they know what they are talking about doesn't mean everyone else will (or that is right for that matter). Now, I don;t want anyone to think that I'm sitting here and just blabbering my mouth off (or my fingers ), I just think that if someone is going to call it science then at least apply some of the standards of it.
know what I mean? |
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| balam |
It makes sense since T's never enter a pupal stage, but at the same time I had only seen nymph used for insects (I don't recall if I've seen it for anything else), but definitely never for arachnids. Plus immature would simply cover it all under one umbrella, at least until that organism matures.
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| BamBaboons |
if you need any more i have some, i just bred one one of my girls too, im waiting on a sack ill send both her and the sac when it happens. | ||||||
| sick4x4 |
immature is just to general a term.... without getting to theatrical with the terminology, IMO we should be as specific as possible when describing stages of development...but again without venturing into the realm of nazism does it really matter??? most hobbyists or at least 90+% its lost on them, so how bout them dodgers????
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| balam |
capisco
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