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balam

L. bishopi

Just want to share the L. bishopi purchased from KenTheBugGuy.com

Here is some pics:



Adomen:




Underside:


She is a Beauty in Red!!!!!
balam

This one is very specialized in catching flying insects. As soon as she was left alone in her tank she webbed across two opposite corners a "net", not the usual abnormal Theridiid web, but just a bunch of strands very close together across the open space all lined up with each other. Se should soon build the catching web underneath.
As flying bugs hit the upper net they may get stuck there, or become disoriented and fall down to the web below where they get stuck and she rushes down to deliver the envenomating bite.

Already had two large crickets, and I'm hoping she lays another sac as the first one didn't survive the cold evening when she was dropped off and left outside the house.
Pulk

balam wrote:
she webbed across two opposite corners a "net", not the usual abnormal Theridiid web, but just a bunch of strands very close together across the open space all lined up with each other. Se should soon build the catching web underneath.


That's what all my hesps and geos did...
balam

Interesting, my geos usually just make a big tangle and build their retreat in a corner mid-level to all the web.
balam

I have to upload pics, but this beauty gave me a going away present on Wednesday the 13th (at dawn). EGG SAC!!!!!!

It is huge, she has it placed in the middle of the retreat and it was hanging straight down; today I came to find the sac still looking great, and that this gorgeous mother is taking good care of it by turning it (it was hanging on its side today)

I took pics on the 13th that I will load up at some point tomorrow.


YAY!!!!!!! Smile
Celeste

CONGRATULATIONS!!!
Steven

Very cool.  I see bishopi being pushed a bit lately ...wonder if they are coming from the same source?
KenTheBugGuy

Steven wrote:
Very cool.  I see bishopi being pushed a bit lately ...wonder if they are coming from the same source?


Don't think so as the guy that sells them to me only sells to me.  Unless someone else got them from me and is selling them.
BamBaboons

ooohh lovely! I want some babbehs.
balam

She had come with one sac that turned out to be no good.

It has been nearly, a month I think, then she laid another one.

I'm keeping her on a minimal diet for the next two weeks or so, then I will change the feeding routine and hope she gives me another one by end Feb or early March.... unless of course this is the last one.

What do you think Steven? How many sacs can you push out of a bishopi?
What

If the first sac was infertile...I doubt you will get a fertile sac out of her.
BamBaboons

D: aw.. well.. maybe, just maybe.. *crosses fingers for you!*
balam

I do not know if it was truly infertile.

It was shipped in a vial wit paper towels in it. Inside of the vial were both the sac and the female bishopi.

The package was left outside and it was there for about 5 hours before I got home. Although it had been incredibly cold that day Ken did put some heat packs in the package.

I guess we'll have to wait and see...
balam

PIcs

here is some pics for your enjoyment... so.... enjoy!





balam

Crap!, I forgot to rotate them... they should be rotated to the left.
Steven

All hard to say ...so many unknowns.  
If a sac gets soaked, it will most likely die.  

If the girl was WC as an adult most likely shes gravid.  

Get her and her sac up to 60% or so humidity. Always seems easiest to regulate the humidity of a larger container or plastic drawer and put her enclosure in there. The reason i say this is that its easy to humid or dry shock a small container when trying to control the moisture in it. Seems a good week or two of SoCal dry can screw a bishopi sac ...same goes for getting it too soaked in swampy enclosure air.
They do move and rotate their sacs...best would be to give her a space where she could move it around between moist and dry.  Thats not so easy though.
balam

THANKS STEVEN!

She is in a 7 Gal tank (approx, since it was custom made)

So far she has not moved the sac out of the retreat but she is turning it.

I could not resist and shone a flashlight onto the sack and could see what i call a good sign:

lots of round yellow balls....

hopefully its a good sign Smile
balam

Yeah well I guess those eggs were infertile as well... they seem to be developing and then they just stop, and they end up being little hard yellow and white little balls.....

Gonna see if she lays another one and see what happens.
BamBaboons

=/ aw lame. well i hope she lays a fertile one soon, if not we should go in on an order from ken on 2 in one order to save money on shipping Razz
Celeste

Sounds to me like she needs a *male*!  ;-)
Steven

balam wrote:
Yeah well I guess those eggs were infertile as well... they seem to be developing and then they just stop, and they end up being little hard yellow and white little balls.....

Gonna see if she lays another one and see what happens.


bummer.  Humidity?  
Yep, probably needs to mate.   Question  Wink
balam

Now I'm on the hunt for a male.

Didn't have luck last time though....

If anyone hears anything about an available single dude for her; well, let me know.

Humidity might have been a problem... I think  the fact that I pulled the egg sac out of her container didn't help either. I will try to leave the next one in as long as possible, just gotta watch out with the tiny vent holes. Smile
WBurke17

Hey Oscar, did you see how I kept my widow?
I use one of those terrestrial cubes that only have the 1 hole on top. to cover the hole I have some medical type tape from the hospital that has tiny holes in it, and I put this over the whole, and I've never had a singlr sling escape from this.

?? Bishopi are what they call red widows? if so I'm suppose to be getting some slings in the near future.
BamBaboons

yeah, they're the reds Warren.
WBurke17

Thank you Smile
BamBaboons

i actually want to do some crossing with L. bishpoi and L. geometricus. for color and pattern variants.
What

Uhh...
balam

BamBaboons wrote:
i actually want to do some crossing with L. bishpoi and L. geometricus. for color and pattern variants.


Don't know how far you can get with this, but if you know something I don't... let me know! Rolling Eyes  Wink
BamBaboons

balam wrote:
BamBaboons wrote:
i actually want to do some crossing with L. bishpoi and L. geometricus. for color and pattern variants.


Don't know how far you can get with this, but if you know something I don't... let me know! Rolling Eyes  Wink


unless i come out with something really awesome, i wont be selling the hybrids or letting them get into the pet trade. i know many frown on that.
balam

OFF TOPIC!!!!!!!

Hey Bam got some geo's I'm willing to give away to a nice home. It's rainy season and I don;t think there will be many out and about t this time of year... at least not until it gets warmer again. Got a juvie, leg span just under 3/4", and a MF.

I had the MF wrongly classified as L. hesperus, but after some investig. I realized it was in fact a geo.

Still looking for a male bishopi. Sad
What

BamBaboons wrote:

unless i come out with something really awesome, i wont be selling the hybrids or letting them get into the pet trade. i know many frown on that.

You wont get hybrids. There has never been a successful cross mating of latros, let alone ones from two different clades.
balam

What wrote:
BamBaboons wrote:

unless i come out with something really awesome, i wont be selling the hybrids or letting them get into the pet trade. i know many frown on that.

You wont get hybrids. There has never been a successful cross mating of latros, let alone ones from two different clades


Rolling Eyes

Soon as I get her to eat and give her some moisture she goes and lays another sac...

so I'm leaving this one in until the end.
Steven

What wrote:
BamBaboons wrote:

unless i come out with something really awesome, i wont be selling the hybrids or letting them get into the pet trade. i know many frown on that.

You wont get hybrids. There has never been a successful cross mating of latros, let alone ones from two different clades.

Not sure if "never"...but yep, pretty much.  It has to happen in nature, but super rare and most likely very few offspring with nil chance of being fertile.
As for clades ...except for geometricus and rhodesiensis all other latros belong to the "black clade" and are from the same split.  The 2 browns live right next to each other and if they were able to successfully xbreed, rhodesiensis probably wouldnt have happened.  During the process of this specie split, somewhere down that line there had to be a clear cut sexual distinction ...proof is in the puddin' ..bingo!...new specie.  
Seems that many of the "black" clades will venture into exotic relations. I found pallidus and sp.Laos (elegans?) to be the most adventurous. Fems of these species seem to receive males throughout their lives and dont seem to have a preference over what specie the male is. Treds and revs and maybe one or two other species should have bred out pals a long time ago, but nature has its ways of screwin'round with sex organs and whatnot, preventing xbreeding from becoming more than the rare freak evolutionary factor than it is.

Wouldnt the offspring of these two lovers be just peachy keen?! ...


or even better maybe...
balam

Steven wrote:
Not sure if "never"...but yep, pretty much.  It has to happen in nature, but super rare and most likely very few offspring with nil chance of being fertile.
As for clades ...except for geometricus and rhodesiensis all other latros belong to the "black clade" and are from the same split.  The 2 browns live right next to each other and if they were able to successfully xbreed, rhodesiensis probably wouldnt have happened.  During the process of this specie split, somewhere down that line there had to be a clear cut sexual distinction ...proof is in the puddin' ..bingo!...new specie.  
Seems that many of the "black" clades will venture into exotic relations. I found pallidus and sp.Laos (elegans?) to be the most adventurous. Fems of these species seem to receive males throughout their lives and dont seem to have a preference over what specie the male is. Treds and revs and maybe one or two other species should have bred out pals a long time ago, but nature has its ways of screwin'round with sex organs and whatnot, preventing xbreeding from becoming more than the rare freak evolutionary factor than it is.

Wouldnt the offspring of these two lovers be just peachy keen?! ...


or even better maybe...


Now that's something else! First of all let me congratulate you and share my utmost respect for methodically conducting these observations.
Now, did you get any sacs?
What I'm hearing is that the "black clades" can mate, but have any of those sacs sprung slings? I understand the offspring, if any, would most likely be infertile but it might just be possible to get a mutation somewhere down the line.
What about the browns?
This is really interesting, and of those females (specifically pallidus and that Laos sp.) is it to be understood that they receive males throughout their life due to their general locations or just because they are more receptive to doing the deed  Shocked ?

Also, the Latro currently known as "hellfire", would it be an example of cross breeding? You seem to have so much knowledge in that aspect that I thought I'd ask.

Thanks
BamBaboons

oh interesting! yeah even though its never been done,... never say never XD. No harm in trying i guess.
Steven

Quote:
methodically conducting these observations.
Not sure if my methods are thought out enough nor gestalt enough to sum it all up as my methodology. ... Laughing  Embarassed  Laughing  And, as for knowledge, just remember that everything I say comes mostly from observing captive specimens. (and technically NOT enough. Wink )  I have observed and experimented with our local hesps and have lately had access to geos in the "wilds" of los angeles.  

Quote:
...did you get any sacs?

No sacs from xbred pairings.  There has been reliable reports from at least one respected US latro keeper of sacs produced by xbred menavodi ...hesp or mactan male..cant recall which.  No offspring were produced. In fact, the eggs were most likely duds from the getgo.  

The pairings above:  1st is a variolus w/"hellfire" male and the other is a pallidus w/"hellfire" male.

Quote:
What I'm hearing is that the "black clades" can mate, but have any of those sacs sprung slings? I understand the offspring, if any, would most likely be infertile but it might just be possible to get a mutation somewhere down the line.
Kevin and I are only making an educated guess regarding cross clades mating possibilities.  Latros are all REALLY closely related (obviously) but the browns compared to the others are the furthest apart. This, along with the fact that geos have expanded throughout the world (thus their sp name) and have found themselves living amongst probably every other latro specie that exists... yet, no crazy xbred "sub-specie" to be had.  ...as far as we know.  Same goes for the rest of the widows. Mactans, hesperus, tredecimguttatus and hasselti have all been expanding their range in leaps and bounds.  It will most likely be macs or hasselti that will eventually join the geos on the moon.  ::lol:::   Could we stumble upon xbred black clades if we looked hard enough? ...I gotta say it HAS to happen now and then...so yes, but would the specimens look different enough to even know?  Probably not ...because there are so many phase possibilities within a single specie ...even from a single sac.   And as for the more obvious...well...as far as I know, no one has come across gray pallidus with 13 pink spots or whatnot.  
Treds and revivensis are an interesting example.  They live amongst each other, their slings look exactly alike, the males look pretty much the same.  Theres even a "morph" or sub-specie of tredecimguttatus formerly labeled L.lugubris that is all black like revs and are known to build webs under their cousins webs. (or other way round...cant recall which sp prefers the higher ground ...brain says revs though... but im drinking scotch)  So...what stops the occasional "receptive" rev from becoming fertilized by a tred boy? Latrodectologists (tongue10 ) discovered that revs have their organs in reverse  ...theres no screwin' reversed threads so to speak.  
Just look at new world loxosceles ("recluse" sp) esp the US species!  They look pretty much identical to the naked eye.  There are some exceptions regarding certain sp and leg lengths along with some weak generalities with color and marking transparency, but overall, the only sure way to ID loxos is via sex bits under the scope.  Natures "way" of keeping a specie a specie ...the square peg, round hole "solution" very well played.  

Quote:
of those females (specifically pallidus and that Laos sp.) is it to be understood that they receive males throughout their life due to their general locations or just because they are more receptive to doing the deed  Shocked ?

It SEEMS like they are more receptive to doing the deed ...at least in captivity.  
Couple things to consider...
I have noticed that non-gravid female widows tend to get desperate to mate after some time of waiting for male visitors and receiving non.  They will uproot and set up in a new area, they will attempt to escape enclosures and they do seem (overall) less aggressive towards males, requiring far less pomp and circumstance to get things a rollin'. My observations of super receptive females MAY be influenced by this.

The other thing is temps.  Temperature plays a huge role in a widows lifespan.  It triggers behavior, influences growth, reduces/extends lifespan and of course it affects feeding, drinking, mating etc.   Could it be that certain species tend to mate more readily during specific environmental conditions vs maybe the other specie or two within the same area?? Its hard to guess that one, cause latros tend to be a heck of a lot less environmentally picky then many other arachnids ...but maybe its about the numbers...the odds. This could be a major factor in reducing the chances of successful xbreeding.  

Quote:

Also, the Latro currently known as "hellfire", would it be an example of cross breeding?  
"Hellfires" were found somewhere in Laos.  They were being imported as "hellfire widows" or "sp Laos".  They could be a specie on their own, the beginnings of a sup-specie/new specie, a lucky find of a cute "phase" or a morph. They are probably L. elegans which are (hope im correct here) the only known native that far east.  




Just a note of caution...
There is a possibility that by x-breeding a widow you could render your female unreceptive to another male even of its own specie, and or unable (physically) to be successfully fertilized.
What

I figure Ill throw this out here... even though I hate Schmidt and think he should have retired years ago...

Further crossing experiments in Latrodectus species
balam

Wow,
Thank you for some clarifications Steven.
And thank you Kevin for the breeding piece.

Now, the "hellfire" or Laos sp, if in fact is L. elegans, has obviously morphed this coloration, but how exactly could we find what species it really is? Wait for it to die and dissect?

xbreeding is really interesting indeed.
Steven

What wrote:
I figure Ill throw this out here... even though I hate Schmidt and think he should have retired years ago...

Further crossing experiments in Latrodectus species

Oh cool!  Did u post this before somewhere??... because i KNOW ive seen this a while back.  ...saving it.   Cool    
Yep, that may not be conclusive, but good enough IMO.
balam

Question!!!

The L. bishopi pulled the sac out of the retreat just a couple of minutes ago! Is it getting it ready for the dispersal of the slings? Should I pull the sac out? or at least make sure to entirely seal the container? (mesh venting)

Any help appreciated.
What

If it is dragging the sac around, it is probably getting ready to cut it out of its web...Which means it is infertile.

And @ Steven, I think I sent that to you in a pm awhile back, not too sure though.
balam

What wrote:
If it is dragging the sac around, it is probably getting ready to cut it out of its web...Which means it is infertile.


That is very likely indeed, being that the past two sacs were infertile as well.
She pulled it out of the retreat and placed it somewhat mid-web, this morning she had moved it back to the entrance of the retreat, and seems to be holding it closely.

So what you are saying is that when they know the sac is infertile they will actually *dump* the sac? Wow!
balam

Guess it's infertile... either that or she can't make her *mind* up as to what she wants to do, keeps on pulling it put and bringing it back in.

I'll wait to see what happens.
balam

I haven't pulled the sac out, mostly because I figured she would cut it if it was useless, but she is still hanging on to it, inside the retreat... this got me thinking, is she displaying some sort of motherly behavior? It's all speculation, but I read somewhere that spiders have in fact displayed motherly behavior by "caressing", touching spiderling legs for no reason other than to caress them (apparently), and other such behavioral characteristics that would seem fitting of mammals or other, but not from arachnids or insects.

Does anyone know of any other explanation? Is she delusional? Holding on to an egg sac that is infertile for an indefinite amount of time (ok, not indefinite, but till long enough to "know" its infertile).

Much appreciated.
Steven

balam wrote:
I haven't pulled the sac out, mostly because I figured she would cut it if it was useless, but she is still hanging on to it, inside the retreat... this got me thinking, is she displaying some sort of motherly behavior? It's all speculation, but I read somewhere that spiders have in fact displayed motherly behavior by "caressing", touching spiderling legs for no reason other than to caress them (apparently), and other such behavioral characteristics that would seem fitting of mammals or other, but not from arachnids or insects.

Does anyone know of any other explanation? Is she delusional? Holding on to an egg sac that is infertile for an indefinite amount of time (ok, not indefinite, but till long enough to "know" its infertile).

Much appreciated.

All kinds of strange sac care behavior has been observed and speculated upon on the bug boards.  
Throwing sacs to the way-side. (common clean-up ...observed and proven)

Digging an old sac out of a carcass pile to start caring for it again. (uncommon, but Ive seen it and Ive been told by a few others that they've seen this also)

Tasting the sac...ie..fangs against sack outer shell and/or biting sac. (somewhat commonly observed. Ive seen this with hesperus for certain.  Theories stend from testing the contents for humidity/whatever to eating the contents.
 
Feeding on sac contents. (Talked about for a while on the boards. Never proven.  Ive never observed this behavior except for whats mentioned above. )
balam

Hello,

The Female laid what appears to be a very fertile sac (the past three had looked very whiteish since the get go), it is yellowish and she has done noting but protect it and rotate it (dispersing sperm?).

Anyhow, she laid the sac on the night of the 9th-morning of the 10th, not quite sure as I really wasn't aware of what was going on with any of the enclosures that weekend.

Anyhow, being that I have never been able to hatch out bishopi, any help is appreciated.

I will post pictures later in the day.

Thank you all.
Steven

sac darkening yet?  Should darken...gray from the inside if its a good one.
Hope!
balam

Don't know if the sac was bad or if it was too humid in there. (I had the container at ~70%)
The mother died, she was found limp just hanging from her web close to the sac, upon further examination a white fungus? was covering her mouth area. I kept her separate from the rest of my enclosures after I noticed that. All the eggs were a dull yellow color. I don't think any of them will make it.
I have them on a makeshift incubator at the moment, but can't say any will make it.

Dang, it was her last sac I guess.
balam



The sac she was guarding.
noexcuse4you

Razz~~~~
Steven

One sac hatched ...well...I forced it to hatch maybe a week early.  Countable amount of slings.  
Mactan (from trip) sac hatched also ...not so countable amount of slings.
cacoseraph

right on man!
WBurke17

Steven wrote:

Mactan (from trip) sac hatched also ...not so countable amount of slings.


If you need help thining those out let me know Wink
balam

Congratulations Steven Smile
My bishopi sac was NOT bad after all, only got about 5 slings from there though.

NICE on your end Wink
Steven

balam wrote:
Congratulations Steven Smile
My bishopi sac was NOT bad after all, only got about 5 slings from there though.

Awesome!  Did they hatch on there own??  Did it look like there was more in the sac and they died or were consumed?  




Quote:
If you need help thinning those out let me know Wink

How many would u want?
WBurke17

I dont know maybe a dozen?
balam

They hatched out on their own (as I thought the sac was bad and neglected any further care), and nope, no other ones were found to have died in there, everything else just didn;t grow legs ;(.

I separated them today. 7 total.
balam

4 died. 3 remain alive.
Steven

hmmm... weak slings? Ive had that happen ...its strange cause slings are usually tough right off the bat and the weak thin out over time and molts.  
Try keeping the remaining at low humidity with light misting every day or two.

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