| Archive for scabies.myfreeforum.org Southern California Arachnid, Bug, Invertebrate, Entomological Society |
| Matt Kogler |
Need ID on 2 speciesI found these two scorps down in SD county near the border, anyone know what species they are. The tiny one is an adult I think as I found tons of them and they were all about this size.. ( And I saw babies of this species about 1/5th of an inch..)
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| What |
Vaejovidae
A. pococki |
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| Matt Kogler |
Which one, the smaller one? I found pictures of the larger one and I think it is Uroctonus mordax... (California forest scorp.) Is the smaller one a type of bark scorp? | ||||
| Matt Kogler |
Ok I have a possitive ID on the second one U. mordax. Does anyone know what sub species the first one is? It came from the hills around Otay lake in San Diego. Here is some closer pics..
It is about 1/2 an inch, they were all about this size, none larger (out of like 20 that I saw..) |
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| WBurke17 |
Who ID'd the U.mordax? | ||||
| Matt Kogler |
Me & Sean (Casey), heres some more pics..
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| WBurke17 |
U.mordax is a nothern species. And as Kevin already stated and as I just received confromation that that is A.pocoki.
It takes years of studying to start keying scorps. If you have questions on I.Ding scorps ask Kari Mcwest, Zach Valios, or Luc K Ross (LKR or barkscorpions as hes known) over on the ATS site. |
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| Matt Kogler |
OK guys I take your ID, A. pococki.. But the pics of all the specimens Ive been able to find don't look close??? Here is one pic of A. pococki.
And here is the one I found..
This is confusing stuff... |
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| WBurke17 |
And heres one I caught;
You really cant go by colors, you have go by details in the body. |
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| WBurke17 |
Also yours is a female and the pic you posted for comparison and my pic are male. these like to burrow so give it a couple inches to do so, and it will be a happy scorp.
If you can get clear shots of the smaller scorp we can try to get an I.D. on that too! |
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| Matt Kogler |
Well thanks for the correction, and the others pics are as close as I can get... (Vivitar $100 dig camera, no huge zoom...::lol::) | ||||
| balam |
Doest the camera have a "macro" setting?
Usually identified by a little flower logo under your features. that will allow you to bring the camera closer to your subject while still in focus. (just remember the closer you are to it the closer it is to you...) result: more detail (since you are closer) 
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| Matt Kogler |
Ahhhh Ha!!!! (I found the flower,::lol::)... | ||||
| Matt Kogler |
Heres some new ones, I will try to set up some better ones later now that I have "flower power"....
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| ~Abyss~ |
I cant see the pics I wish I can help but your gonna have to wait till i get home. But seriously to get a POSITIVE id on vajovis you need to ask Kari or Zach. | ||||
| Matt Kogler |
Heres a couple more, this is the closest I can get w/o being blurry...
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| SeanCasey |
Well, my crack at it appeard to be wrong. Now, to my defense, my guess was not solely based on my color, however it appears that I picked the wrong details to look at. My original pick was actually not U. mordax (which I read somewhere about some being found in San Diego county, unfortunately I do not recall the source nor where I found it, so it could be garbage info for all I know). Of course, my first pick was incorrect as well.
What would be helpful for everyone is to point out what traits are present that helped create the ID. |
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| Matt Kogler |
I agree... Your guess was good though, from what I have learned they are very closely related.. It was my suggestion that that specimen was U. mordax, What said A. pococki...
Still wanting to know what the smaller species is V. ??? |
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| Matt Kogler |
What about Serradigitus ?? The pics Ive seen of these look very close?? | ||||
| SeanCasey |
The smaller one is either a Vaejovis or Serradigitus.
At this point I am guessing Serradigitus gertschi after looking at your new pictures. It seems to most closely the outline of traits posted here: http://www.vaejovidae.com/Genus%20Serradigitus.htm If it is Serradigitus, then I would guess S. gertschi based on pale color and pattern (all I have to go on for this guess sorry). When compared to: http://www.vaejovidae.com/Genus%20Vaejovis.htm |
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| SeanCasey |
Ok, I found an old thread on ATS regarding the Anuroctonus vs Uroctonus discussion. Here is a snippet of information regarding the differences:
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| Matt Kogler |
That was the site that made me think Serradigitus... | ||||
| WBurke17 |
Let me try to dig out the key that I use or at least try to use... | ||||
| WBurke17 |
Heres one, have fun 
http://wrbu.si.edu/scorpions/sc_key_NA/nakey.html |
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| Matt Kogler |
Thanks to Paul Becker (Pet Center USA) we now have another ID for the big fella, Anuroctonus phaiodactylus... Here is a pic, looks like it doesnt it?
Anuroctonus phaiodactylus 
My scorp
Looks like the same species? I love stuff like this, science is why I never understood those "math geeks"... (I believe the local is good too..) |
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| WBurke17 |
thats the first problem to ID'ing scorps... looks like. alot of scorps look like each other but are very different.
I dont know Pauls background, but if Zack, Kari or Luc give an opinion then thats as good as gold to me. |
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| What |
A. pococki and A. phaiodactylus are the same thing...with phaiodactylus being the outdated taxon.
For the final time...it is A. pococki. |
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| Matt Kogler |
OK What, you know your stuff, I get that... I thought this was a place to discuss things and learn, so your coming across like an ass isn't appreciated. No one said you didn't know what you were talking about, I put this up there to get more than one persons opinion. People contact me with ideas and I posted them, no one is attacking your ID or you, so relax.. | ||||
| SeanCasey |
Well if A. phaiodactylus is a junior synonym then it is technically correct, just not proper scientifically speaking. Its not like this is the first time there has been confusion over synonymos specie names. Afterall, I still see T. magnimanus referred to as T. falconensis. Plenty of confusion exists within Centruroides as well.
I agree with Matt, the whole point discussion boards is to exchange ideas and thoughts and if someone poses a question against something that is commonly accecpted they should politely shown the information that supports the accepted norm. Don't just say "it is this, and thats final", show why it is that. We are all in this to learn and to enjoy these wonderful creatures. Any response or attitude that can be interpreted as negative only serves to make people less likely to post or to drive people away because they rather not deal with it. In the end everyone loses when people stop asking questions. Negativity is the number one killer of clubs and hobbies. I have seen in in car clubs when I had my Firebird, I have seen it in computer clubs, and it would be very unfortunate to see it happen to this hobby as well. |
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| ~Abyss~ |
it is A pococki, and the vaijovid isn't S. gertchi. it's a Vajovid or Hoffmanius species. (split up recently) | ||||
| balam |
I think we all know how something like this can turn out... 
Either way, for the sake of things, if a taxon is outdated or has changed and is no longer the correct one, well then.... it's no longer the correct one!!! I agree though, there are always misconceptions with the so called "synonym" names... I think Kyle even caught one somewhere in the Smithsonian... 
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| Matt Kogler |
OK , well thanks for all the input, it is appreciated... | ||||
| balam |
Hey Matt, (OFF TOPIC) I'll PM you if you still want that snake I sent you a pic of!! |
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| Matt Kogler |
Huh??? What snake?? | ||||
| SeanCasey |
On a side note Matt, on ATS both Kari McWest and Zach Valois http://www.atshq.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21169&page=2 agree with the Serradigitus gertchi ID for the small Vaejovidae.
Kari also had this to hadd regarding the A. pocki / U. mordax discussion:
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| Matt Kogler |
Well great, thank you. So the ID of both has been established. I am glad we had the chance to bat this around. I'm not looking for a quick ID, but more conversation regarding how to learn to classify these guys, what is looked for and how people come to those conclusions, its fascinating to me.. (And frustrating at times, but that's all part of learning..)
I am sure I will come across more critters that we can discuss in the future.. Thanks everyone, especially Sean & Warren, I appreciate the emails and explanations as to how these things are ID'd.. |
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| crash714 |
Hey Eddy, Do you have links to any articles regarding the split? Sounds like something I want to read up on. Thanks, Eric |
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| ~Abyss~ |
Large files. But i should state that there is some debate and people like Zach refuse then the new change untill further review.
http://www.science.marshall.edu/fet/euscorpius/p2008_71.pdf http://www.science.marshall.edu/fet/euscorpius/pubs.htm |
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| What |
Sorry, I find the approach I took tends to be the best when the person is acting like a "someone dun told me that was a rattler so it is a rattler" kinda person, even when confronted with evidence pointing to the most correct ID. Is that a problem? |
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| Celeste |
Yes, Kevin -- you're coming across as sounding really confrontational, when there is no need for that. We're all "family" here. ('Course, Matt could do his part by having a slightly thicker skin and ignoring your tone). You've made your point. Do try to treat each other with courtesy and respect, all right? |
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| Matt Kogler |
Thicker skin?? Sorry, this guy has a know it all attitude, and he's rude (I'm not the only one to think so..). So Kev, in the future you see a post from me, don't respond, as I have no interest in your input...
(And your quote attempting to make me look like some ignorant hick is amusing, you never gave any information why it is what it is, you only stated "this is what it is". Very enlightening...) |
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| SeanCasey |
Perhaps this little exchange is a good indication as to why Denise decided to not be involved with SCABIES any longer?
The attitude of "well they are challenging what was already confirmed, so I'll just be an arsehole about it" does not belong here, or anywhere for that matter. If anything we should encourage people to ask questions or even challenge what we know because it gets everyone to do more research and learn even more. That is what this all about. We are supposed to help each other learn, and encourage asking questions, even if it means rehashing the same thing. Let’s explain why it is what it is. This is not about a "well I know more than you so I am superior" attitude. There is no place for narcissism in a club. And, what do people think with that attitude coming from a moderator which should be setting the example for others to follow? |
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| Matt Kogler |
Thank you Sean, I seemed to have gotten on well with everyone Ive chatted with here until this.
You see I have no problem admitting I am a total noob to arachnids, if I had the same attitude to new comers in herpetology, no one would benefit.. I enjoy learning, not going to apologize for it. I ask lots of questions, throw out lots of ideas. And if your the kind of individual that is a snob, just remember there was a time when you didn't know anything either... I didn't come here to be popular, or make friends, I came to learn about arachnids, and to talk to people I assumed had knowledge of these inverts. Coming across to new people like a douche doesn't encourage them to want to associate with this group, you being a mod & presenting yourself this way makes scabies look snobbish.. |
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| WBurke17 |
Okay I need to step in.
Matt, Sean, and Celeste all have a point if we cant respond nicely lets not responde and wait for somebody else to do so. What did our parents teach us about not being able to say something nice!!! lets remember that
Now back on topic, ask away. that is how we all learn. also if we want more then an answer, and want how we come up with that answer ie:papers, sites or whatever, lets include that in our posts. W |
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| balam |
I think (and forgive me if I do offend anyone here), whenever there is an argument there are at least two parts to the story.
I believe the initial posting was: Need ID on 2 species. The ID was given by one of the members since the get-go. I understand if you would like this to become a SoI thread, then maybe it can be geared towards that direction. There were other members who were a little more careful about ID ing just because it takes so much experience in order to be able to do it correctly. Yet, it was decided to go with the erroneous ID's ( I don't know why and am not looking for reasons, this is just a fact). The fact is even in the face of evident ID, by some of the most knowledgeable people i.e. Zach V., there were still unanswered questions about the two scorps. Perhaps in the future we can use a question as: What morphological characteristics should I use to key this sp? or something along those lines. (if it is in fact more knowledge which you seek). Now, to add "Is that a problem" (Don't know if I'm quoting directly) to the end of a sentence (with the inherent tone that was given) did come off as confrontational, and I do agree that is perhaps not the best approach taken by a mod. If new members come across this, like it was mentioned, it is SCABIES that suffers the damage. But if we went around the world letting people get to us every time someone makes an uncalled remark, or even looks at us the wrong way, then it wouldn't be much of a fun place to live in. "thicker skin" is also meant to be taken lightly, in the sense that, listen, if I sit here and write this I may be coming off as an a-hole as well, but don't let that bother you, and if it does then you have to remember that it is you who ends up getting mad, not the other person , so don't waste your time by getting into a sort of pissing contest. This is not the place for it.
When asking for an ID, take it all cum granis, unless you KNOW the answer is coming from an expert in the field. Even then, use whatever information you have gathered and research those sp by yourself. Coloration is never great to go by, and this is true for most insects/arachnid/bugs. (They all have some exceptions), and just because I own 300+ sp of a particular invert doesn't make me an expert, Get informed!!! This is just my honest opinion. |
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| SeanCasey |
On a quick note regarding the A. phaiodactylus and A. pococki:
Lucian Ross had this to say:
So being A. pococki, it is not in any way (since they are not synonymous) an A. phaiodactylus. Lucian is sending me a document regarding the Anuroctonus genus, so perhaps later I might have details on what seperates the two. |
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| WBurke17 |
Please share the paper when you get it.. | ||||
| What |
Interesting, Dr. Sissom at W.Tx A&M seems to disagree with that(according to speaking to him at Arachnocon), Kari also seems to disagree, if I remember correctly. Edit: Comment from Kari, note the past tense: http://bugguide.net/node/view/57420 Edit v2: "Anuroctonus phaiodactylus (now identified as A. pococki Soleglad et Fet, 2005)," |
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| sick4x4 |
i think this comment was made due to distribution statistics and genus locale's which i believe have been amended.... |
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| SeanCasey |
Interesting how much disagreement there seems to be over it. It definately highlights why we should question everything because sometimes even the experts don't agree. I think the only way to really solve some of these debates is to spend millions and millions of dollars and have a full DNA sampling made of every scoprion and reclassify them based on DNA. Come on I know we can get Bill Gates to donate! ::lol:: j/k.
Ok now seriously, I will keep checking for this paper for Lucian. Perhaps on the ATS thread I'll post some of the stuff Kevin posted and see what discussion it spurs on. |
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| WBurke17 |
Thats pretty much what Kari and his group are doing with DNA | ||||