i actually want to do some crossing with L. bishpoi and L. geometricus. for color and pattern variants. _________________
Proud member of The Boys club.
i actually want to do some crossing with L. bishpoi and L. geometricus. for color and pattern variants.
Don't know how far you can get with this, but if you know something I don't... let me know!
unless i come out with something really awesome, i wont be selling the hybrids or letting them get into the pet trade. i know many frown on that. _________________
Proud member of The Boys club.
Hey Bam got some geo's I'm willing to give away to a nice home. It's rainy season and I don;t think there will be many out and about t this time of year... at least not until it gets warmer again. Got a juvie, leg span just under 3/4", and a MF.
I had the MF wrongly classified as L. hesperus, but after some investig. I realized it was in fact a geo.
Still looking for a male bishopi. _________________ God does not play at dice AE
unless i come out with something really awesome, i wont be selling the hybrids or letting them get into the pet trade. i know many frown on that.
You wont get hybrids. There has never been a successful cross mating of latros, let alone ones from two different clades. _________________ - Kevin aka What
Oderint dum metuant My photos
unless i come out with something really awesome, i wont be selling the hybrids or letting them get into the pet trade. i know many frown on that.
You wont get hybrids. There has never been a successful cross mating of latros, let alone ones from two different clades.
Not sure if "never"...but yep, pretty much. It has to happen in nature, but super rare and most likely very few offspring with nil chance of being fertile.
As for clades ...except for geometricus and rhodesiensis all other latros belong to the "black clade" and are from the same split. The 2 browns live right next to each other and if they were able to successfully xbreed, rhodesiensis probably wouldnt have happened. During the process of this specie split, somewhere down that line there had to be a clear cut sexual distinction ...proof is in the puddin' ..bingo!...new specie.
Seems that many of the "black" clades will venture into exotic relations. I found pallidus and sp.Laos (elegans?) to be the most adventurous. Fems of these species seem to receive males throughout their lives and dont seem to have a preference over what specie the male is. Treds and revs and maybe one or two other species should have bred out pals a long time ago, but nature has its ways of screwin'round with sex organs and whatnot, preventing xbreeding from becoming more than the rare freak evolutionary factor than it is.
Wouldnt the offspring of these two lovers be just peachy keen?! ...
or even better maybe...
_________________
jet trail in the sunset
a long way away
cutting 'cross the horizon
at the edge of the day
and it calls Jimmy
come fly away
but I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
yeah, I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
--James McMurtry
Not sure if "never"...but yep, pretty much. It has to happen in nature, but super rare and most likely very few offspring with nil chance of being fertile.
As for clades ...except for geometricus and rhodesiensis all other latros belong to the "black clade" and are from the same split. The 2 browns live right next to each other and if they were able to successfully xbreed, rhodesiensis probably wouldnt have happened. During the process of this specie split, somewhere down that line there had to be a clear cut sexual distinction ...proof is in the puddin' ..bingo!...new specie.
Seems that many of the "black" clades will venture into exotic relations. I found pallidus and sp.Laos (elegans?) to be the most adventurous. Fems of these species seem to receive males throughout their lives and dont seem to have a preference over what specie the male is. Treds and revs and maybe one or two other species should have bred out pals a long time ago, but nature has its ways of screwin'round with sex organs and whatnot, preventing xbreeding from becoming more than the rare freak evolutionary factor than it is.
Wouldnt the offspring of these two lovers be just peachy keen?! ...
or even better maybe...
Now that's something else! First of all let me congratulate you and share my utmost respect for methodically conducting these observations.
Now, did you get any sacs?
What I'm hearing is that the "black clades" can mate, but have any of those sacs sprung slings? I understand the offspring, if any, would most likely be infertile but it might just be possible to get a mutation somewhere down the line.
What about the browns?
This is really interesting, and of those females (specifically pallidus and that Laos sp.) is it to be understood that they receive males throughout their life due to their general locations or just because they are more receptive to doing the deed ?
Also, the Latro currently known as "hellfire", would it be an example of cross breeding? You seem to have so much knowledge in that aspect that I thought I'd ask.
Thanks _________________ God does not play at dice AE
oh interesting! yeah even though its never been done,... never say never XD. No harm in trying i guess. _________________
Proud member of The Boys club.
Not sure if my methods are thought out enough nor gestalt enough to sum it all up as my methodology. ... And, as for knowledge, just remember that everything I say comes mostly from observing captive specimens. (and technically NOT enough. ) I have observed and experimented with our local hesps and have lately had access to geos in the "wilds" of los angeles.
Quote:
...did you get any sacs?
No sacs from xbred pairings. There has been reliable reports from at least one respected US latro keeper of sacs produced by xbred menavodi ...hesp or mactan male..cant recall which. No offspring were produced. In fact, the eggs were most likely duds from the getgo.
The pairings above: 1st is a variolus w/"hellfire" male and the other is a pallidus w/"hellfire" male.
Quote:
What I'm hearing is that the "black clades" can mate, but have any of those sacs sprung slings? I understand the offspring, if any, would most likely be infertile but it might just be possible to get a mutation somewhere down the line.
Kevin and I are only making an educated guess regarding cross clades mating possibilities. Latros are all REALLY closely related (obviously) but the browns compared to the others are the furthest apart. This, along with the fact that geos have expanded throughout the world (thus their sp name) and have found themselves living amongst probably every other latro specie that exists... yet, no crazy xbred "sub-specie" to be had. ...as far as we know. Same goes for the rest of the widows. Mactans, hesperus, tredecimguttatus and hasselti have all been expanding their range in leaps and bounds. It will most likely be macs or hasselti that will eventually join the geos on the moon. ::lol::: Could we stumble upon xbred black clades if we looked hard enough? ...I gotta say it HAS to happen now and then...so yes, but would the specimens look different enough to even know? Probably not ...because there are so many phase possibilities within a single specie ...even from a single sac. And as for the more obvious...well...as far as I know, no one has come across gray pallidus with 13 pink spots or whatnot.
Treds and revivensis are an interesting example. They live amongst each other, their slings look exactly alike, the males look pretty much the same. Theres even a "morph" or sub-specie of tredecimguttatus formerly labeled L.lugubris that is all black like revs and are known to build webs under their cousins webs. (or other way round...cant recall which sp prefers the higher ground ...brain says revs though... but im drinking scotch) So...what stops the occasional "receptive" rev from becoming fertilized by a tred boy? Latrodectologists ( ) discovered that revs have their organs in reverse ...theres no screwin' reversed threads so to speak.
Just look at new world loxosceles ("recluse" sp) esp the US species! They look pretty much identical to the naked eye. There are some exceptions regarding certain sp and leg lengths along with some weak generalities with color and marking transparency, but overall, the only sure way to ID loxos is via sex bits under the scope. Natures "way" of keeping a specie a specie ...the square peg, round hole "solution" very well played.
Quote:
of those females (specifically pallidus and that Laos sp.) is it to be understood that they receive males throughout their life due to their general locations or just because they are more receptive to doing the deed Shocked ?
It SEEMS like they are more receptive to doing the deed ...at least in captivity.
Couple things to consider...
I have noticed that non-gravid female widows tend to get desperate to mate after some time of waiting for male visitors and receiving non. They will uproot and set up in a new area, they will attempt to escape enclosures and they do seem (overall) less aggressive towards males, requiring far less pomp and circumstance to get things a rollin'. My observations of super receptive females MAY be influenced by this.
The other thing is temps. Temperature plays a huge role in a widows lifespan. It triggers behavior, influences growth, reduces/extends lifespan and of course it affects feeding, drinking, mating etc. Could it be that certain species tend to mate more readily during specific environmental conditions vs maybe the other specie or two within the same area?? Its hard to guess that one, cause latros tend to be a heck of a lot less environmentally picky then many other arachnids ...but maybe its about the numbers...the odds. This could be a major factor in reducing the chances of successful xbreeding.
Quote:
Also, the Latro currently known as "hellfire", would it be an example of cross breeding?
"Hellfires" were found somewhere in Laos. They were being imported as "hellfire widows" or "sp Laos". They could be a specie on their own, the beginnings of a sup-specie/new specie, a lucky find of a cute "phase" or a morph. They are probably L. elegans which are (hope im correct here) the only known native that far east.
Just a note of caution...
There is a possibility that by x-breeding a widow you could render your female unreceptive to another male even of its own specie, and or unable (physically) to be successfully fertilized. _________________
jet trail in the sunset
a long way away
cutting 'cross the horizon
at the edge of the day
and it calls Jimmy
come fly away
but I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
yeah, I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
--James McMurtry
Wow,
Thank you for some clarifications Steven.
And thank you Kevin for the breeding piece.
Now, the "hellfire" or Laos sp, if in fact is L. elegans, has obviously morphed this coloration, but how exactly could we find what species it really is? Wait for it to die and dissect?
xbreeding is really interesting indeed. _________________ God does not play at dice AE
Oh cool! Did u post this before somewhere??... because i KNOW ive seen this a while back. ...saving it.
Yep, that may not be conclusive, but good enough IMO. _________________
jet trail in the sunset
a long way away
cutting 'cross the horizon
at the edge of the day
and it calls Jimmy
come fly away
but I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
yeah, I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
--James McMurtry
The L. bishopi pulled the sac out of the retreat just a couple of minutes ago! Is it getting it ready for the dispersal of the slings? Should I pull the sac out? or at least make sure to entirely seal the container? (mesh venting)
Any help appreciated. _________________ God does not play at dice AE
If it is dragging the sac around, it is probably getting ready to cut it out of its web...Which means it is infertile.
That is very likely indeed, being that the past two sacs were infertile as well.
She pulled it out of the retreat and placed it somewhat mid-web, this morning she had moved it back to the entrance of the retreat, and seems to be holding it closely.
So what you are saying is that when they know the sac is infertile they will actually *dump* the sac? Wow! _________________ God does not play at dice AE
I haven't pulled the sac out, mostly because I figured she would cut it if it was useless, but she is still hanging on to it, inside the retreat... this got me thinking, is she displaying some sort of motherly behavior? It's all speculation, but I read somewhere that spiders have in fact displayed motherly behavior by "caressing", touching spiderling legs for no reason other than to caress them (apparently), and other such behavioral characteristics that would seem fitting of mammals or other, but not from arachnids or insects.
Does anyone know of any other explanation? Is she delusional? Holding on to an egg sac that is infertile for an indefinite amount of time (ok, not indefinite, but till long enough to "know" its infertile).
Much appreciated. _________________ God does not play at dice AE
I haven't pulled the sac out, mostly because I figured she would cut it if it was useless, but she is still hanging on to it, inside the retreat... this got me thinking, is she displaying some sort of motherly behavior? It's all speculation, but I read somewhere that spiders have in fact displayed motherly behavior by "caressing", touching spiderling legs for no reason other than to caress them (apparently), and other such behavioral characteristics that would seem fitting of mammals or other, but not from arachnids or insects.
Does anyone know of any other explanation? Is she delusional? Holding on to an egg sac that is infertile for an indefinite amount of time (ok, not indefinite, but till long enough to "know" its infertile).
Much appreciated.
All kinds of strange sac care behavior has been observed and speculated upon on the bug boards.
Throwing sacs to the way-side. (common clean-up ...observed and proven)
Digging an old sac out of a carcass pile to start caring for it again. (uncommon, but Ive seen it and Ive been told by a few others that they've seen this also)
Tasting the sac...ie..fangs against sack outer shell and/or biting sac. (somewhat commonly observed. Ive seen this with hesperus for certain. Theories stend from testing the contents for humidity/whatever to eating the contents.
Feeding on sac contents. (Talked about for a while on the boards. Never proven. Ive never observed this behavior except for whats mentioned above. ) _________________
jet trail in the sunset
a long way away
cutting 'cross the horizon
at the edge of the day
and it calls Jimmy
come fly away
but I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
yeah, I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
--James McMurtry
The Female laid what appears to be a very fertile sac (the past three had looked very whiteish since the get go), it is yellowish and she has done noting but protect it and rotate it (dispersing sperm?).
Anyhow, she laid the sac on the night of the 9th-morning of the 10th, not quite sure as I really wasn't aware of what was going on with any of the enclosures that weekend.
Anyhow, being that I have never been able to hatch out bishopi, any help is appreciated.
I will post pictures later in the day.
Thank you all. _________________ God does not play at dice AE
sac darkening yet? Should darken...gray from the inside if its a good one.
Hope! _________________
jet trail in the sunset
a long way away
cutting 'cross the horizon
at the edge of the day
and it calls Jimmy
come fly away
but I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
yeah, I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
--James McMurtry
Don't know if the sac was bad or if it was too humid in there. (I had the container at ~70%)
The mother died, she was found limp just hanging from her web close to the sac, upon further examination a white fungus? was covering her mouth area. I kept her separate from the rest of my enclosures after I noticed that. All the eggs were a dull yellow color. I don't think any of them will make it.
I have them on a makeshift incubator at the moment, but can't say any will make it.
Dang, it was her last sac I guess. _________________ God does not play at dice AE
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) discovered that revs have their organs in reverse ...theres no screwin' reversed threads so to speak.
~~~~