I'm not squeamish -- I've dissected many different kinds of critters, performed minor surgeries, and even watched my vet doing surgery on some of my animals. But *that* is really disturbing somehow... Amazing and fascinating, but deeply disturbing at the same time...
The poor rat must be totally freaked out... Can you imagine? _________________ "Tarantulas are friends, not food" (but I bet they taste pretty good with butter and lemon!)
well, i think they mentioned the neurons last something like three weeks, and many rats have been needed to do it... _________________ God does not play at dice AE
But imagine you're a rat, and you wake up and all you can "see", "feel", or "hear" are the signals from the robot, and you can't really feel your body, and you stumble around and the signals you get are all confusing, and you're probably really disoriented, and you're terrified, and eventually you probably just give up because nothing makes any sense to you, and then your neurons are dying anyway... I wonder if it feels pain, too?
I think it's really cruel... just for the sheer terror and anxiety the poor rat brain must feel... not to mention having to live the rest of your little rat life in that condition... like some little rat "nightmare hell"... :-( _________________ "Tarantulas are friends, not food" (but I bet they taste pretty good with butter and lemon!)
well, i'd hope that somehow the fact that there "is" no body should somehow prevent any pain from even being present.
I'd also hope that somehow it is only using movement responses, and somehow not even identifying or "knowing" that anything else is missing, there is no lungs to take care of breathing, there is no fur to take care of grooming and no mouth to take care of feeding.
Jeez, I thought it was going to sound a little better.. but there really isn't a way around it. _________________ God does not play at dice AE
Not sure if i believe what they are claiming here. _________________
jet trail in the sunset
a long way away
cutting 'cross the horizon
at the edge of the day
and it calls Jimmy
come fly away
but I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
yeah, I've been
too long in the wasteland
too long in the wasteland
I believe I'll have to stay
--James McMurtry
But imagine you're a rat, and you wake up and all you can "see", "feel", or "hear" are the signals from the robot, and you can't really feel your body, and you stumble around and the signals you get are all confusing, and you're probably really disoriented, and you're terrified, and eventually you probably just give up because nothing makes any sense to you, and then your neurons are dying anyway... I wonder if it feels pain, too?
I think it's really cruel... just for the sheer terror and anxiety the poor rat brain must feel... not to mention having to live the rest of your little rat life in that condition... like some little rat "nightmare hell"... :-(
Rat brain cells in a dish with electrodes != a functioning rat brain in a rat. This kind of technology doesnt rely upon personalities or even "thinking", the neurons are simply biological logic gates that can remap their connections as needed.
My opinion is that those things are only amazing untill the army gets a grasp on it and converts it into some warrior Cyborgs.
The more i look at those new robots that come out here and there and the more i think that one day this world will look exactly the same as it does in the Terminator movies.
All i'm hoping is that i won't be here to see it .
I am disturbed by the fact that it is something that is capable of learning and understanding. It won't be long until we experiment with brains that are more evolved. I can see a human brain being put on something like that.
It is all fun and games until that thing becomes self aware and destroys us all. _________________ My karma ran over your dogma...
You can say what you want, Kevin, but that robot is clearly sensing and reacting to things in its environment, in very much the same way a living rat (in its own body) would. Since they refer to "rat brains" in the video, it *sounds* as if they are using rat brains, not just cultured neurons. If they *are* just using a petri dish of neurons, instead of an actual rat brain removed from a rat's body, then the neurons are "aware" -- they are not just firing randomly... I agree that a brain removed from a body *probably* wouldn't feel pain, but it would probably feel emotions, as rats are very intelligent and sensitive animals... _________________ "Tarantulas are friends, not food" (but I bet they taste pretty good with butter and lemon!)
You can say what you want, Kevin, but that robot is clearly sensing and reacting to things in its environment, in very much the same way a living rat (in its own body) would. Since they refer to "rat brains" in the video, it *sounds* as if they are using rat brains, not just cultured neurons. If they *are* just using a petri dish of neurons, instead of an actual rat brain removed from a rat's body, then the neurons are "aware" -- they are not just firing randomly... I agree that a brain removed from a body *probably* wouldn't feel pain, but it would probably feel emotions, as rats are very intelligent and sensitive animals...
Sensing and reacting is very very very far from being able to rationalize disorientation and making sense of the environment. So, assuming it isnt an entire brain, what exactly are they supposed to call a rat neuron culture in a petri dish for the average schmoe, the term "rat brain" seems to work in the colloquial sense, doesnt it? (And this BBC article, which seems to be about the same project, agrees that it is just neurons in a dish.)
Anyways... the neurons arent necessarily "aware"(and I cant see any reason to suspect they are) they are functioning as logic gates, something that doesnt require awareness; the transistors in your computer are doing it right now.
On yet another note, how exactly would researchers be expected to take a brain out of the living rat and then reestablish all the necessary connections with electrodes all while keeping the brain tissue alive with the now worthless circulatory system?
(This post doesnt really come off as I would like it to in parts...I couldnt find any other wording I felt had the same meaning with a different tone.) _________________ - Kevin aka What
Oderint dum metuant My photos
provided it is as they say... i don't think the rats suffer
england is ZANY about preventing animal cruelty and "animal cruelty". i expect the hoops their scientists have to jump through are much much more narrow than those that ours do. any on fire. and rotating on their main axis.
_________________
Quote:
There may be people who like centipedes. I have seen people handling tarantulas and scorpions, but never a centipede handler. I would regard such a person with deep suspicion...Now what sort of man or woman or monster would stroke a centipede on its underbelly "And here is my big good centipede." If such a man exists, I say kill him without more ado. He is a traitor to the human race.
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